con, pt. 2: panel notes, and recs
Mar. 11th, 2008 03:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
slinklingA few people at the Costs of Heroism panel asked me to post my notes from that conversation. I should specify that I wasn't taking notes during the panel, but I'm happy to share the questions I used to get the conversation going:
The Costs of Heroism
The official panel description was:
What does a character need to give up to be a hero? Is self-sacrifice a necessary part of heroism, or just something that adds juicy conflicts to the plot? Would it even be heroic to save the world (or some equivalent) if that savior doesn't lose anything of his/her own along the way? Fandoms likely to be discussed include Smallville, Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Due South, Heroes, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and others.
And the discussion questions were:
• What makes a character heroic?
• Can anybody think of a canonical hero who DOESN’T have to sacrifice his/her personal happiness in the course of heroism? (Nobody could.) If not, what does that tell us about heroism – what it means to be a hero?
• What makes self-sacrifice so heroic? Is that all heroism means: sacrificing one’s own happiness/goals/well-being for the greater good? Who defines that greater good?
• What about characters who sacrifice themselves for the greater good but AREN’T generally seen as heroes? Snape is a classic example. Who’s more heroic? The one who works without recognition, or the one who gets crowned at the end?
• Lex, arguably, in seasons 5 and 6 of SV, believes the earth is under threat of alien invasion, and he’s the only one with the knowledge and means to prepare a viable defense. He charges ahead with his work – researching on unwilling human subjects, cloning people, testing technologies that hurt people, etc. – with no regard for how this makes him look to the rest of the world. He doesn’t care if Clark and the others see him as a villain; it’s not important, as compared with saving the world. Assuming one accepts this explanation of his motivations, does that make him a hero, even with all the bad things he does? Why or why not?
• Would Superman still be a hero if we didn’t also know that he’s Clark Kent, who pines for normal human relationships but can never really have them? If Frodo had been able to recover from his quest, and live a normal life after destroying the ring, would his actions have been less heroic?
• Is it really just a plotting thing? Because admittedly, a story about someone who’s totally invulnerable, who doesn’t risk or lose anything at all in the course of battling evil, would be somewhat less than thrilling. But is that less-than-thrilling protagonist therefore less heroic? Or just less satisfying to read about?
• Let’s talk about Firefly. When River and Simon are nearly burnt at the stake, the crew of Serenity shows up in the nick of time to rescue them, and Zoe identifies herself, Mal, and Jayne as “big damn heroes.” Yet at the start of the movie, “Serenity,” Zoe defines a hero as “someone who gets other people killed.” Discuss.
• What about characters who help and support the superhero in spite of having no particular powers themselves? Xander rushes into many of the same dangers Buffy faces. She has super strength and enhanced healing, not to mention a sacred duty. He has none of that, he just wants to help. She, of course, is the more effective fighter, but he often provides vital backup, at far greater risk. Is he a bigger hero than she is? Why or why not?
***
Conversation did, of course, range fairly far from these questions. Several people brought up classical heroes (Achilles, Beowulf, etc.) as well as more modern characters (Lois Lane, the Winchester brothers), which led to some interesting talk about heroes as role models, and gender and heroism, and how the notion of a hero has changed in the last thousand years or so -- including how heroes have changed as the audience for literature and other forms of culture has expanded.
Also, during this and other conversations, I mentioned a handful of fics and meta-essays which I promised to provide links for. So:
- In "Costs of Heroism," I referenced a SV essay which discussed the cyclical nature of SV plots, and how this relates to the show's comic book origins. That essay is by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
huzzlewhat and can be found here. I also highly recommend norwich36's pair of essays on cyclical plotting in SV, with particular regard to the episode "Promise." Those can be found here and here.
- Someone told me about a barista AU in SGA fandom, and I mentioned that there's also a barista AU in SV. It's bytoomuchplor, it's an RPF AU in which Michael Rosenbaum isn't cast as Lex but rather ends up working in a Vancouver Starbucks, it's called "You Keep Me High," and it can be found here. (I know, it sounds cracky, but it's really good.)
- In the panel on genderbending, I recommendedkristiinthedark's DS stories in which RayK develops a panty fetish. These are short but distressingly hot, and can be found here, here, here, and here. Really, I have no crossdressing kink at all, but these just WORK.
- (Speaking of the genderfuck panel, somebody there recced a SPN story in which Dean becomes a girl, gets pregnant, gives himself an abortion, and then winds up crying to a waitress about it. Does anybody know where to find that?)
Aaaaaaand I can't remember if there were other links I was supposed to provide. If you heard me mention any other meta or fic that you want a link to, let me know and I'll dig it up.
The Costs of Heroism
The official panel description was:
What does a character need to give up to be a hero? Is self-sacrifice a necessary part of heroism, or just something that adds juicy conflicts to the plot? Would it even be heroic to save the world (or some equivalent) if that savior doesn't lose anything of his/her own along the way? Fandoms likely to be discussed include Smallville, Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Due South, Heroes, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, and others.
And the discussion questions were:
• What makes a character heroic?
• Can anybody think of a canonical hero who DOESN’T have to sacrifice his/her personal happiness in the course of heroism? (Nobody could.) If not, what does that tell us about heroism – what it means to be a hero?
• What makes self-sacrifice so heroic? Is that all heroism means: sacrificing one’s own happiness/goals/well-being for the greater good? Who defines that greater good?
• What about characters who sacrifice themselves for the greater good but AREN’T generally seen as heroes? Snape is a classic example. Who’s more heroic? The one who works without recognition, or the one who gets crowned at the end?
• Lex, arguably, in seasons 5 and 6 of SV, believes the earth is under threat of alien invasion, and he’s the only one with the knowledge and means to prepare a viable defense. He charges ahead with his work – researching on unwilling human subjects, cloning people, testing technologies that hurt people, etc. – with no regard for how this makes him look to the rest of the world. He doesn’t care if Clark and the others see him as a villain; it’s not important, as compared with saving the world. Assuming one accepts this explanation of his motivations, does that make him a hero, even with all the bad things he does? Why or why not?
• Would Superman still be a hero if we didn’t also know that he’s Clark Kent, who pines for normal human relationships but can never really have them? If Frodo had been able to recover from his quest, and live a normal life after destroying the ring, would his actions have been less heroic?
• Is it really just a plotting thing? Because admittedly, a story about someone who’s totally invulnerable, who doesn’t risk or lose anything at all in the course of battling evil, would be somewhat less than thrilling. But is that less-than-thrilling protagonist therefore less heroic? Or just less satisfying to read about?
• Let’s talk about Firefly. When River and Simon are nearly burnt at the stake, the crew of Serenity shows up in the nick of time to rescue them, and Zoe identifies herself, Mal, and Jayne as “big damn heroes.” Yet at the start of the movie, “Serenity,” Zoe defines a hero as “someone who gets other people killed.” Discuss.
• What about characters who help and support the superhero in spite of having no particular powers themselves? Xander rushes into many of the same dangers Buffy faces. She has super strength and enhanced healing, not to mention a sacred duty. He has none of that, he just wants to help. She, of course, is the more effective fighter, but he often provides vital backup, at far greater risk. Is he a bigger hero than she is? Why or why not?
***
Conversation did, of course, range fairly far from these questions. Several people brought up classical heroes (Achilles, Beowulf, etc.) as well as more modern characters (Lois Lane, the Winchester brothers), which led to some interesting talk about heroes as role models, and gender and heroism, and how the notion of a hero has changed in the last thousand years or so -- including how heroes have changed as the audience for literature and other forms of culture has expanded.
Also, during this and other conversations, I mentioned a handful of fics and meta-essays which I promised to provide links for. So:
- In "Costs of Heroism," I referenced a SV essay which discussed the cyclical nature of SV plots, and how this relates to the show's comic book origins. That essay is by
huzzlewhat and can be found here. I also highly recommend norwich36's pair of essays on cyclical plotting in SV, with particular regard to the episode "Promise." Those can be found here and here.- Someone told me about a barista AU in SGA fandom, and I mentioned that there's also a barista AU in SV. It's by
toomuchplor, it's an RPF AU in which Michael Rosenbaum isn't cast as Lex but rather ends up working in a Vancouver Starbucks, it's called "You Keep Me High," and it can be found here. (I know, it sounds cracky, but it's really good.)- In the panel on genderbending, I recommended
kristiinthedark's DS stories in which RayK develops a panty fetish. These are short but distressingly hot, and can be found here, here, here, and here. Really, I have no crossdressing kink at all, but these just WORK.- (Speaking of the genderfuck panel, somebody there recced a SPN story in which Dean becomes a girl, gets pregnant, gives himself an abortion, and then winds up crying to a waitress about it. Does anybody know where to find that?)
Aaaaaaand I can't remember if there were other links I was supposed to provide. If you heard me mention any other meta or fic that you want a link to, let me know and I'll dig it up.
